Supposedly some scientists at the UN's World Health Organization has reversed earlier recommendations and now say cell phones might cause cancer.
OK, repeat after me. Cell phones cannot cause cancer. Do you know what causes cancer? DNA damage. What damages DNA? Usually, ionizing radiation (you can get it from other means as well, but cell phones supposedly cause EM field issues that cause cancer). You get that exposure from the sun--and from your surroundings, to a degree, depending on where you live.
You don't get it from microwaves. You don't get it from watching TV. You don't get it from cell phones.
First and foremost, radation is a fancy word for light. Radio waves? Light. Heat from your toaster? Light. Difference is the freqency of the light wave, that's all. Ionizing radiation is simply a light wave over the very high end of the electro-magnetic field spectrum. Think gamma rays, x-rays, and ultraviolet rays. Ultraviolet is the threshhold--below this level, EM fields are no longer ionizing.
So, here's the scale:
Low end of the frequency bar: cell phones, wifi, microwaves, radio waves, tv broadcasts. Good thing this is non-ionizing, since we're bathing in this stuff.
Middle range of the frequency bar: visible light. Again, good thing this is...oh, you get it by now.
High range of the frequency bar: UV, X-ray, and Gamma rays. Light goes invisble again at UV. That same UV is what gives you a tan--another way to get cancer (of the skin). UV isn't really too bad though, or we'd all have cancer. X-rays are far worse--which is why you only get a few of those a year to minimize your exposure. Gamma rays are way worse--don't expect to see those used for medical scans anytime soon.
So, cell phones are in the non-ionizing band. In slightly non-sciency words, cell carrier waves just don't have enough juice to modify your DNA. Thus, no cancer. Perhaps those knuckleheads at WHO should read their own website.
I definitely don't think cell phones and most other types of non-ionizing radiation cause cancer, but I'm not convinced they are terribly healthy for you either. As is true with nearly anything in life, overexposure or indulgence to anything is usually bad and these low end frequency types are certainly causing a stir too (Enjoy the pun). While it can take relatively small doses of ionizing radiation to cause problems, huge doses of non-ionizing are almost sure to be causing some health issues too. Cancer? No, probably not directly, but perhaps in large doses it helps to weaken cells enough to make them more susceptible to the ionizing bad boys.
I just don't have the belief that our increased exposure to non-ionizing is all "good vibrations." Is it going to stop me from using all these awesome things? No, I've got a short life to live and they are friggen cool. I'm glad WHO is looking into it, but I know this will cause another group of people to start spreading cell phones == cancer fallacies.
GJ said about 17 hours later
The simple fact is, we distinguish between non-ionizing and ionizing radiation by the fact that ionizing has the energy to modify DNA. That's not a soft limit. As for it being healthy or not--you have been bathed in it since birth. So have I. There's this thing we call background radiation--it's all around us.
Further, cell phones have been in use for over 20 years. If they caused cancer, we'd have seen a pretty noticeable bump in cancer rates. Only problem is--there is no bump. Nada, nothing. What there is: a fair amount of hysteria pushed by a few unscrupulous authors. These same knuckleheads proposed that power lines caused cancer in the 1970s and 80s. You can guess how well that panned out--but there are lots of uninformed people out there that believe that too.
So, all we have is "feelings" that cell phones are bad for us. That's exactly why the WHO is looking at this, and it's not science.
Marc said about 19 hours later
I think the real problem is the journalists looking to write sensational articles and the idiots that believe them at face value. In additional, the journalists tend to fall in that second category too so they actually believe what they are writing is truth.
Based on the original article, it really pretty clearly says that scientists have never found definitive evidence that cell phones are an issue, but they have found some correlative evidence which is making them investigate. I would read that as is, but most people won't get past the article title and they'll spin it to say cell phones do cause cancer. This particular article isn't all that bad, but I'll bet people like Yahoo and others who use Reuters as their templates will spin it to sound scary (and then slap it on their front page for all to see) :)
GJ said about 21 hours later
It doesn't alter the fact the the WHO, the UN's scientific body, is taking this seriously when most scientists treat it with the same skepticism they reserve for other made-up maladies. I take it as a sign the UN bureaucrats are dictating what work the WHO must do, regardless of its worth in scientific terms. That's the real shame here.
GJ said about 23 hours later
BTW, Marc, your last line proved to be right on the money.
See how long it takes for her to go off the rails. Provide the mm:ss of the first critical FAIL. Be sure to keep beer nearby to sooth your headache, should you happen to understand a smattering of physics and this video reacts violently to that knowledge of yours.
I think around 01:46 is when my laughing became distracting for my fellow cubemates.
Geoff said about 2 hours later
0:25 - I'm going to explain to you exactly, actually how it works.
GJ said about 2 hours later
0:25 was the condescension warning, but she hadn't quite gone overboard yet.
Geoff said about 3 hours later
well I'm not sure where she is getting her calculations of the universe, but I'd say she should have stopped talking when she got into the mass of the universe being the size of a ball?!? I believe mass should be a numerical measurement of the amount of matter in an object...for example, 3 × 10 (to the 52 power) kg....which is actually one guestimate for the mass of the universe.
Marc said about 3 hours later
It's perfectly fine for the universe to be the size of a ball. It would just be the most dense object ever (although she's making me question even that statement).
The H2O mention was ultimately pathetic. Anybody who's gone to school knows that and if not, they've likely seen The Waterboy.
Geoff said about 4 hours later
Yeah but the mass of an object has nothing to do with it's size. A brick of gold has more mass than beach ball, but is smaller. Who cares what the size of the universe is, it's mass is not insignificant, and thus can't be "crossed out" from the E=MC2 equation.
GJ said about 4 hours later
Marc's right, Geoff, your understanding of mass is pretty much on par with someone having no physics training. Which is another way to say you're mistaken, but I wouldn't expect you (or most people) to get it right, because in your day to day life it really doesn't matter. Ahahahahah, I made another pun.
She was making the (correct) point that our bodies are not as massive as we might thing. The cells that we're made of are pretty sparse on the atomic level. Compare us to, say, an android made of lead, similarly sized. Lead is waaaaay denser than what we're mostly made of--water. However, lead is nowhere near as dense as the core of the Sun, for example. However, her point that you could squeeze all the matter in the universe into a bowling-ball sized field is dumb--you can put in into any dimension size/shape you want, it just alters the density. There is no real upper limit on that density, so it could have fit into a golf ball sized object.
Worse, she's making the argument that because all the matter in the universe can be squished down to this relatively tiny object (not like she can even verify the amount of mass in the universe--something astronomers still dicker about today), she says that it can be discarded from Einstein's E=MC^2 formula since it's almost negligible in size compared to the other two entities in the formula, energy (E) and the speed of light (C). Lady--if mass was effectively zero, you can't just drop it--it is multiplied by the speed of light. If you treat it as zero, then the energy of the known universe is ZERO. Ummm, observationally I can pretty much rule that idea out. :)
Bingo--that's the Idiot Point. Just got worse from there.
GJ said about 4 hours later
Oh, sorry, I didn't give you a proper definition of mass. It is the measure of stuff in matter, but since the density of the object can vary wildly, you'd have to convert it all to the same kind of material to "weigh" it. Or, just convert the whole universe to heat energy and measure that heat--same answer. In any case, because it's matter, it can be represented in any particular form of any desired mass (well, until it gets so dense it becomes a black hole, then it's kind of hard to deal with) and thus it's final size is pretty much an malleable concept.
Geoff said about 4 hours later
my point was, she was representing the mass of the universe as a ball...and the mass of an object has nothing to do with the size or shape of the object, correct? She made no mention of matter in that statement I don't believe. That's where her idiocy began I believe. Correct me if I am wrong. If she had said ALL THE MATTER in the universe, I might sorta say different, but she said MASS :)
Either case her point was stupid and she only used mass because that is in the equation which she attempted to poorly debunk(?)
Geoff said about 4 hours later
and Physics...is a woo science I tell you. ;) That shit did not make any sense back in high school.
GJ said about 5 hours later
Physics in high school amounted to little more that applied algebra. Low on theory, high on simple math problems. Where's the woo?
Mass doesn't dictate the size nor shape, but she was making a point about quantity, not the size and shape. Unfortunately, while she started with the right idea, she veered off into imaginary land very quickly.
Geoff said about 22 hours later
I would think matter would be more about quantity, vs mass. All the matter in the universe makes more sense than all the mass in the universe, no?
I was good in Math...physics in HS made no sense. I took the simple equations (or relatively simple...the satellite trajectory stuff was a bit more fun) and never got the answer in the book. They would have made up numbers appear...F=MA right? Well to solve their problem it would be F=MA/Capn'Crunch * pie+MC2 to get their answer. I kid you not. And to boot, I watched my teacher spend an entire class day trying to solve an equation, and HE NEVER SOLVED IT! Are you kidding me? lol
Marc said about 23 hours later
Matter is actually more about the substance that makes up an object and it's also typically used to describe its current state (solid, liquid, etc.). Think of mass being something very low level, where it's describing, for example, the weight of proton. Matter is more a description of the types of masses in a particular object (as in, all of its molecules, their weights, shapes, bonds, etc.) So essentially, matter is usually associated with a volume. So in the case of the universe, there's plenty of mass, but it's spread out over a huge volume.
Saying all the matter in the universe vs. all the mass in the universe gives you different answers. Universe as a whole is made of all sorts of matter, but I don't care what this lady says, no matter what way I arrange that matter, it's mass will always be important in the equation. As GJ said, we're multiplying it by the speed of light. Any time you multiply, you can't just say "Eh..it's rather insignificant, let's drop it". If the equation was something like E = M + C^2, for extremely large values of M or C, you *might* be able to say the other value is so insignificant that E is nearly equivalent to the large value.
Geoff said about 23 hours later
good explanation. I'll go back to making matter with a mass amount of animation look pretty :)
Abby said 1 day later
3:03 -- sorry, last time I checked, human cells don't have cell walls. :P
3:20 -- and I'm also quite sure that protons, electrons, and neutrons make up atoms. atoms make cells. you kinda can't skip that step.
see, I do pay attention in science class, contrary to what my teacher seems to think. hahah. crazy lady is crazy.
This was hilarious, but he made an accidental and important point when he said that "Horrible medicine has been around for years and then we tested it all and the stuff that worked became medicine." Homeopathy is the cheapest form of human drug testing. So by all means, anybody who is willing to risk their life on the horrible medicine, go for it. :)
GJ said about 21 hours later
Homeopathy is so cheap because there's no medicine IN it. :)
That is a good point, though--if you want to try out "alternative" medicine, go right ahead. Just do it knowing that the snake oil business is alive and well in the 21st Century, and they all play a very convincing game. Good luck with that! Btw, I may have a bridge you might be interested in buying.
You've seen the ads all over TV for the last few years. Hydroxycut will make you lose weight--without exercise!
If you have even a basic understanding of biochemistry and physics, you'd recognize this as the dietary supplement equal of the perpetual motion machine.
What's scary about this, and practically every other junk science product out there, is this: the developers of the product actually believe they know what they are doing. They think, hey, we can add lots of caffeine, since that speeds up your metabolism and theoretically (by virtual of their rationalization, and positive-reinforcment based research) will help you burn calories faster. They add several other ingredients, some well-known, some much less known, in an effort to come up with a magic pill to do the impossible. However, these folks don't really know what they're doing--have no idea how to safely test a product--and really don't understand what the fuss is all about.
And of course, due to the wild west that is the dietary supplement business, the government only gets involved when people start dying. Well, to no one's shock, especially not mine, that's where we are with this product. For those that suffered no ill effects, it's not so bad--they just got to pay a "stupid tax," since any result they got wasn't the result of this product.
Want some hints as to other products in this category? Glad you asked.
Cold-Eeze. Airborne. Dr. Frank's Homeopathic Spray for People/Animals. HeadOn. The list just goes on, and on, and on. Fight back by staying wary. A product shows up and claims wonderful benefits with practically no downside? Be wary--very, very wary. Ask the tough questions. You'll find they almost always resort to the same evasive answers.
Watch the ads--you'll see an explosion of these soon promising protection against the swine flu. Same deal. :)
I think this is what Marc was referring to as skeptics being mocking. And this is really, really funny if you're familiar with that goofball doctor who thinks water molecules retain memory and all of the fun details about the "science" of homeopathy.
Marc said 19 minutes later
I can still enjoy a good piece of humor. This one is good. :) It's when a skeptic comes off as trying to be serious and they mock in the process that problems occur. Good 'ol bashing is always fun too, as there's usually some creative things that come out of it.
Payback time for the makers of Airborne. Literally.
Such a shame to see charlatans held accountable for their lies. Thankfully this product is pretty much harmless. The same can't be said for a whole of of other "natural" cures out there.
Update: The Sharper Image has gone bankrupt. Want to know why? 60% of their sales were attributed to their woo product "Ionic Breeze" in their not-so-distant boom times. Consumer Reports laid the smackdown on them in 2005, alleging that the product did not clean the air much at all, and worse it emitted dangerous levels of ozone. So, with their flagship product sales dropping catastrophically, it's no surprise they went under financially.
Ozone is a poison, for those who don't know. Chemically, the oxygen you need it O2 while ozone is O3. The "ions" used in these "ionic" air purifiers are ozone molecules, which are supposed to attract dust. They also emit that "right after the lightning storm" smell, which some people like. That smell is ozone--lightning changes oxygen to ozone as it burns through the atmosphere. Now, does electrically charged ozone collect dust? A little. However, that ozone is a big problem for some.
Now, you ask--who was the Ionic Breeze specifically marketed to? Why, allergy and asmtha sufferers, of course--to better purify the air they breathe. Who is most susceptible to ozone poisoning? Same group of people. So, this product was sold as a health benefit to people, and instead it would exacerbate the very problems it claimed to mollify. Aww, they're going out of business as a result of their poor business ethics. What a shame.
Now you know why I hate this crap, and don't tolerate even the stuff that appears harmless. Unless you test and vet your products, how do you really know if you'll harm someone, let alone know if the product does what it's supposed to?
Do hop on over to Astrological Magazine's website to say goodbye, for the venerable rag of stupidity distrubution is shutting down. Be sure to read the reason why they are shutting down. You'd be wise to don your irony helmet, too.
The Immortal Lily The Pink The 100th anniversary of the FDA marks a milestone in medicine before which cranks and charlatans ran amok by Daniel Loxton
Lydia Pinkham, as she appeared on an original antique advertising card, circa 1880. This year has represented a little-remarked-upon major milestone in American medicine: the 100th anniversary of active Federal regulation of food and drugs. The Pure Food and Drug Act came into effect on January 1st, 1907 — the first step toward the creation of the modern Food and Drug Administration (FDA), and a step forward from the dangerous anarchy of the patent medicine era.
For the first time, drug manufacturers were required by law to disclose the dosage and purity of their products (including, for the first time, disclosing whether they contained poison, alcohol, or narcotics such as heroin or cocaine). They were also required to refrain from deliberately lying about their products, and from fraudulently substituting a claimed ingredient for some other ingredient.
Bizarrely, such laws were needed.
To celebrate this anniversary, and in time for the holidays, we’re pleased to share a brand new, free MP3 recording of a song with roots extending back to the bad old days of unrestrained snake oil: “Lily the Pink” (performed here by the Canadian bluegrass trio Dirty Dishes).
“Lily the Pink” (which evolved from “The Ballad of Lydia Pinkham”) is a comic send-up of the woman called “the queen of patent medicine.” Starting in 1875, Lydia Pinkham built a business empire on the hype-driven sales of a herbal concoction marketed to women for relief of “all those Painful Complaints and Weaknesses so common to our best female population.” In specific, it was intended to address menstrual cramps, and was also “particularly adapted to the Change of Life.”
True to the dizzy style of the unregulated patent medicine era, Lydia E. Pinkham’s Vegetable Compound was promoted with a blizzard of unlikely claims. (As the lyrics of “Lily the Pink” mockingly put it, “She invented a medicinal compound, efficacious in every case.”) Ad copy insisted that it cured everything from headaches to indigestion to farting, not to mention sleeplessness and depression. (Its primary ingredient was booze, so there was no doubt some evidence to support these latter claims.)
Less believably, Pinkham’s Compound was advertised to “dissolve and expel tumors from the uterus at an early stage of development. The tendency to cancerous humors there is checked very speedily by its use.” It was also, the ads said, remarkably effective: “98 out of every 100 women who take the medicine for the ailments for which it is recommended are benefited by it. This is a most remarkable record of efficiency. We doubt if any other medicine in the world equals it.”
Remarkable indeed.
It’s clear that most of these boasts were made up whole cloth, but was any of it true? I asked quack medicine expert Dr. Harriet Hall, “Was Pinkham’s herbal cocktail at all useful for treating anything?”
“The bottom line,” Hall told me, “is that we have no idea whether her product was effective or safe, since it has never been properly tested. We have no good evidence that any of the individual components are safe or effective, and we have no way of knowing what might happen when you mix them. Mixing remedies could do almost anything — they could cancel each other out, have additive effects, vastly increase the chance of side effects, who knows?”
Certainly the Lydia Pinkham Medicine Company had no idea whether its product was safe or effective. It was literally something Pinkham brewed up in her basement, without scientific testing of any kind.
On the other hand, we do now have firm evidence regarding the efficacy of black cohosh, the herb modern alternative medicine proponents most often cite as the effective active component to Pinkham’s Compound. Long considered promising as a treatment for the symptoms of menopause, black cohosh unfortunately bombed in a recent large trial designed by the National Institutes of Health to clarify the ambiguous existing literature and settle the question. The results of this randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled trial were unequivocal: black cohosh is useless for the control of menopausal hot flashes and night sweats.
As far as science can tell, Lydia’s Compound was worthless in public health terms. By free market standards, however, it was a soaring success story. Pinkham’s booming 19th century enterprise raked in hundreds of thousands of dollars a year.
The secret, then as now, was marketing. Pinkham spread the message through national print ad campaigns, door-to-door sales, point of purchase postcard giveaways, and many books and pamphlets that alternated recipes or household tips with ads for her product. The company’s aggressive marketing pioneered a formula for selling quack medicine that is still common today:
Market directly to women: At the mercy of a male-dominated medical establishment, women were eager to seize control of their own health. Offering them a way to sidestep the then-primitive medical mainstream through the consumption and word-of-mouth promotion of a herbal “alternative” was (and still is) an effective hook for a sales pitch. With its “just us girls” attitude and its “Only a woman can understand a woman’s ills” tagline, the Lydia Pinkham Medicine Company turned shameful social inequality into a source of profit. Sow fear of mainstream medicine: “ANY HOSPITAL EXPERIENCE is painful as well as costly and frequently dangerous,” warned Food and Health, a promotional book produced by Pinkham’s company. “Many women have avoided this experience by taking Lydia E. Pinkham’s Vegetable Compound in time…” Present your big business as warm, folksy and personal: With Lydia Pinkham’s matronly portrait as its logo, the company was able to present itself as a homemade cottage enterprise. (Fans of the animated TV series Futurama may recognize “MomCorp” and its subsidiary “Mom’s Friendly Robot Company” as comic descendants of the Pinkham advertising model.) Customers who wrote for advice even received personal responses from Lydia herself — for years after she died. In fact, a large, dedicated department within the company churned out replies by the thousands. Today, this time-tested advertising model — present your mainstream competitors as cold and mercenary, while presenting your own for-profit company’s herbal products as warm, homemade, and natural — is still in wide use in the alternative medicine industry. Indeed, it’s shocking how little has changed.
Today, herbal concoctions and other supplements are cooked up and marketed with wild abandon, with all the unrestrained, unverified boasting of the patent medicine era still on display. We are told (coyly, skirting the few rules for labeling) that herbs and proprietary blends can cure more-or-less anything — just as we were assured by Lydia Pinkham.
Have we really made so little progress against health fraud?
In fact, we’ve come a long way. Today, most medicines are carefully regulated, and consumers can be reasonably assured of the basics: that effectiveness, side effects and interactions are known to some degree; that the bottle contains what the label says; that we are not unknowingly buying bottles of heroin, and so on. We all know that regulation comes with its own cost (drugs take a long time to get to market, for example) but we’re much, much better off than drug consumers in Pinkham’s day.
Unfortunately, current regulations have a hole in them, a hole large enough to drive a truck through — or rather, truckload after truckload of untested, unregulated herbal “supplements.”
The fault for this lies with a piece of legislation called the Dietary Supplement Health and Education Act of 1994 (DSHEA), which seized back control of patent medicines from the FDA. Driven by strenuous lobbying from supplement manufacturers, this legislation removed all herbs, vitamins, and minerals from FDA oversight — despite the fact that herbs are drugs, exhibiting a full range of effectiveness (or ineffectiveness), dangerous side effects, and interactions with other drugs. Not only are the producers of herbal drugs and other supplements no longer required to prove that their products work — or whether they are safe — but the burden of proof regarding safety is explicitly shifted to the FDA.
That is, anyone can sell any old combination of herbs at any dosage, without any obligation to even try to find out if that product is safe or not.
Only if a supplement kills enough people to get the FDA’s attention, and if the staff of the FDA can find the time and budget, can the FDA then attempt to prove in court that the supplement is unsafe. This costly and lengthy close-the-barn-door-after-the-horses-have-escaped procedure is of course attempted only rarely, and in the most severe cases. The first such case was the banning of ephedra, a supplement suspected in hundreds of deaths. This ban was soon challenged in court (by a company which sells ephedra), and overturned — on the basis that the DSHEA forbids FDA action even in such an extreme case. Luckily, the ruling against the ephedra ban was itself overturned on appeal. After more than two years of legal battles, ephedra supplements are today illegal.
Despite this eventual victory on this one substance, the DSHEA renders the FDA almost powerless over herbal drugs, even if they are known to be dangerous. (Certainly the FDA has no power at all over herbal drugs whose dangers are simply unknown.) This industry-driven legislation inexplicably shifts the cost of safety testing from the companies that profit from the sales of supplements to the taxpayer. More to the point, the risk is shifted from the R&D budgets of companies to the personal health of individual consumers — exactly where we began, in Lydia Pinkham’s day.
Thanks to the DSHEA, the supplement industry has exploded (by several hundred percent or more). It now rakes in tens of billions of dollars a year. Requiring no expensive safety testing or FDA approval, these products are produced with an enviable profit margin, which has of course drawn large pharmaceutical corporations enthusiastically into the supplement industry. (People buying “alternative” herbal products rarely appreciate the likelihood that they are feeding their dollars into the exact same Big Pharma system they are attempting to circumvent, with the only difference being that corporation has been excused from the responsibility or cost of ensuring the safety or effectiveness of one of its lines of drugs.)
We’ve come a long way — but we’ve also, in some ways, come full circle.
This is a shame, because the room for mischief we’ve granted to modern alternative medicine manufacturers is the exact same ground we won at such great cost and effort from the early 20th century patent medicine industry. Like today’s Natural Cures infomercial star (and convicted con-man) Kevin Trudeau, the Pinkham company engaged in a series of running battles with Federal regulators regarding the dishonesty of its labeling and advertising. As is still the case, vagueness and coy insinuation became the best friends of quack medicine manufacturers. (Noting yet another label change in 1939, Time magazine quoted the American Medical Association’s exasperated patent medicine czar: “Lydia E. Pinkham’s Vegetable Compound is ‘Recommended as a Vegetable Tonic in Conditions for which this Preparation is Adapted.’ This statement is about as informative as it would be to say that ‘For Those Who Like This Sort of Thing, This is the Sort of Thing That Those People Like.’”)
It’s clear that we still have much work to do in this important public health arena:
In 1875, one business empire was founded on the sale of Lydia Pinkham’s Vegetable Compound, an untested medical potion for “those painful Complaints and Weaknesses so common to our best female population.”
Today, after a century of wrestling with the patent medicine industry, another company markets an alternative medicine concoction promoted as “beneficial in menstrual and menopausal distress.”
Honestly, when I saw how long this post was, I disregarded it. Now that I have time (vacation day today), I've read it. I never knew the background to all of these herbal supplements. I can't say I've ever been a fan or much of a user of them either. I did buy Metabolife once, used it three days before deciding that I don't really know for sure how it works or how safe it is, and threw the bottle away. That was the first and last herbal supplement I have ever purchased.
GJ said 2 days later
This stuff is rampant these days. From Airborne to Zicam, the aisles at your local drugstore are chock-filled with products that claim to do all sorts of things they've never been proven to do. In fact, many have been proven to be ineffective in their targeted mission. That doesn't stop many of them from labeling themselves either indistinguishable from normal meds (Zicam) to playing the role of the innocent schoolteacher's find that the drug companies must have overlooked (Airborne).
And of course, not only have they not been tested for effectiveness, neither have they been tested for safety. Costs too much money, hurts the bottom line, etc. However, people are suckers, and this stuff sells like hotcakes. Thank the beauty of anecdotal evidence and positive affirmation, both of which have helped all sorts of charlatans over the years in various disciplines.
Geoff said 2 days later
Don't forget good marketing....us ad agencies are good for something....even if what we market does nothing :)
Steve said 2 days later
You know, that's crap. The auto industry is tested for safety - how can drug companies not be tested for safety? Where is the life insurance's version of IIHS (Insurance Institute for Highway Safety)?
GJ said 3 days later
:) These guys aren't drug companies by any stretch. I'd be shocked if any even had someone with a college degree in chemistry or biology on staff.
Steve said 3 days later
"People buying “alternative” herbal products rarely appreciate the likelihood that they are feeding their dollars into the exact same Big Pharma system they are attempting to circumvent, with the only difference being that corporation has been excused from the responsibility or cost of ensuring the safety or effectiveness of one of its lines of drugs."
That makes me think that drug companies are involved. That said, I'm sure there are also lots of small companies in this business too.
GJ said 3 days later
To be sure, some drug companies have looked around and said--hey--why don't we get in on the game? Well, not drug companies per se, but the manufacturers of things like Alka Seltzer and Halls are jumping in on the BS bandwagon.
Big Pharma is a nightmare construct of people who don't understand the medical community. Are there nasty things going on there? Sure there are. We just saw some of the seedier side here in Albany at the VA hospital, where a doctor was busy trying out new treatments on vets suffering from a variety of cancers. He would have fit in well in Dr. Megele's lab. But to paint the entire industry with the same brush (i.e., Big Pharma) is simply not true--but it's an attractive concept to many people. Small wonder these are the same people who get so worked up by things like "Loose Change" and other conspiracy theories.
Of course, throw too much bureaucracy into the mix and you get New York. Believe me, you don't want that. Still, not enough and you get the Wild West. If people would just "do the right thing" we could land in the middle...but hahahaha, that'll never happen thanks to human nature. :) So instead, we just bounce from one extreme to the next, which is the whole reason why the two polar-opposite party system works so well in this country.
Steve said 4 days later
If only Christianity were practiced more, than "do the right thing" would happen more often. Unfortunately, too many people have been swayed by "conspiracy theories" into not having any faith in God at all, and thus, not caring nearly enough about others in comparison to how much they care about themselves.
GJ said 4 days later
Uh oh, Steve has played the "atheists can't have morals" card. Boo hiss. Troll! We've had this discussion before, but I can troll pretty good too. :)
Geoff said 4 days later
lol
Steve said 4 days later
Ah come on, I expected you 2 to explode!! You're ruining all of my fun!
GJ said 4 days later
Darcy doesn't approve of my tendency to feed trolls.
Darcy said 5 days later
NO, Darcy doesn't approve of you trolling. Get it straight.
GJ said 5 days later
You mean I wasted a chance to flame Steve? For shame, for shame.
Steve said 6 days later
This has to be a record for the most replies to a thread that sat dormant after being posted for a couple of days...
Geoff said 6 days later
well all you have to do really is mention the world religion in a post, and your sure to grab yourself a comment or two :)
So only the camera caught a visual? Hmm...blurry image moving like a flying insect, only visible to the camera. I'm gonna go with dragonfly.
Abby said about 10 hours later
Lol, I agree with dragonfly.
GJ said 1 day later
It's definitely some kind of bug. Most are pointing to a relative of the katydid, especially given how commonly found they are in Ohio this time of year. It think it was doing a combination crawling / flying thing, something dragonflies aren't real good at--but I could buy that it was hovering instead of crawling, in which case that'd be a dragonfly and not a katydid.