You may think that upgrading your 25mpg sedan to a 50mpg hybrid will save the world, but it is far better to get those 10mpg trucks into 20mpg trucks. How is that so? I'm getting 25mpg more with the hybrid, vs only 10mpg more. Do the real math...watch below:
This is what happens when management professors try to teach math. I'll respond with a longer comment later, but the conclusion will basically be this: MPG is a linear equation by mathematical definition and price directly correlates to MPG for cost effectiveness (There's nothing exponential about it). Basically: Their math is right, but their conclusions are wrong.
GJ said about 4 hours later
Agreed, and I'll expand a bit. They don't have a proper thesis, nor statement of problem. What exactly are they trying to address? Because they lack that, it's easy for them to come up with a solution--for it doesn't need to fix a problem they didn't state.
In fact, after watching it, I'm not really sure what their point was. Even as some kind of propaganda piece, it fails horribly.
Geoff said about 5 hours later
OK guys...everyone is on a hybrid craze right? I would say the average american has 2 cars...and usually, I see a sedan and a truck/suv. So, somebody wants to save more gas, so they upgrade their sedan to a hybrid because everyone and their mother is telling them Hybrid is the way to go. A better decision would be to upgrade their SUV/truck to a more efficient SUV/truck. Some would think upgrading their 25mpg sedan to a 45mpg hybrid will save more gas money than upgrading their 12mpg truck to an 18mpg truck, but assuming the right conditions are met (aka, you drive equal amount of miles on both cars, same kind of road conditions/highway/city, etc...), upgrading the SUV or truck to another SUV or truck with slightly better MPGs could actually save them MORE money and use LESS gas, than upgrading their sedan to a hybrid.
I'm not saying hybrids are a dumb buy. For me, I thought dropping my mpg from 17 to 15 wasn't a huge deal. It's only 2mpg (I was thinking about turning off 4 cyl Active Fuel Management). However, 2mpg on my car actually means more than I originally thought. This is just a different way of viewing MPG. And I'm not the only one...at least not the G8 owners. They all say the same thing. I'll disable AFM, I'm only losing 2mpg. Not a big deal. It probably is bigger than they think if they looked at it this way.
Marc said about 5 hours later
Geoff, you're situation is painting a different picture than what this video seems to be trying to market. In your situation, of course you would improve the mileage a little bit on your truck to see more money back in your wallet (That's because you're spending a whole lot more on gas to begin with compared to a 25MPG or 50MPG car).
This video seemingly painted a picture that you're doing a whole lot more by improving your truck a little vs. improving your sedan a lot. It's just not true, it's a matter of perspective. If I double the MPG on my truck and sedan, sure I'm going to see more net money saved on the whole from the truck, but the ratio is still the same and my sedan is still saving me boatloads more than your truck. (I know you agree with this, the video just did a poor job of trying to compare)
This video would have been much better if they did an explanation of why these new hybrid trucks and SUVs are well worth the small increase in MPG. People don't realize that every little bit counts when your gas mileage sucks. When you get closer and closer to the magical number of MPGs where the changes in costs are minuscule to the average income, it doesn't seem like a big deal. But anyway you look at it, if I can lower the amount I'm spending on gas, that sounds pretty dang good and the only way to do that is to increase my MPGs proportionally.
To be honest, people would be better off doing the conversions themselves when buying a new vehicle to see the cost of gas in a money per mile ratio. They would be able to see that at low MPGs, a small increase could save them a lot on gas, but dang that sedan hybrid saves me thousands...maybe I don't need the SUV? Money/mile is a good measurement of what a vehicle is going to cost you in the long run.
Geoff said 1 day later
Right...that was just my thinking. Just never really looked at 2mpg as a big jump. But it is if you've got an inefficient vehicle. It's the same reason why people price things like $299. It looks a lot better than $300....even if it is only $1 difference. :)
Steve said 5 days later
These guys are geniuses! Oh wait. The Europeans have been using liters of fuel/100 kms driven as their fuel economy specification for as long as I've been in the auto industry.
I agree that publishing gallons of gas used per 100 or 1000 miles driven is a good way to express fuel economy. But the government's bigger issue right now is figuring out how to compare energy used per xx miles. That way Chevy doesn't get to claim 240 mpg for the Volt, nor Nissan 300 mpg for the leaf.
GJ said 6 days later
Oh, I dunno, how about kilojoules per mile. Nice agnostic term, nobody needs to worry whether it's gas powered, electric powered, etc.
Oh, wait--then you'd have to figure in how much energy was used to make the gas, or the electricity....oh, never mind.
Steve said 6 days later
Yea, there is no clean way that anyone has figured out to fairly rate how much energy is used to power a car (not just the electricity to charge the car's batteries or the fuel to run the engine, but the cost to generate and distribute the energy).
It will be very interesting to see what the government does to rate the "fuel economy" of the soon to arrive plug in hybrids. From what I've heard, they just "negotiated" a value with Chevy for the Volt, and while they may have used some science to come up with a "negotiated" value, the idea that it's "negotiated" means that it's not a known calculation.
Perhaps a better way to do "energy economy" is calculate a highway energy economy for a full tank of fuel (~40 miles of full electric power than gas power to supplement it), and city fuel economy for whatever the average person's driving distance is for commuting to work AND back (say 50 miles round trip). Then they'd have to put a big caveat on the fact that the city energy economy rating is based on a short trip, and that longer city driving will degrade the energy economy, as you'll be running on gasoline longer.
Geoff said 6 days later
I didn't realize GM was still moving forward with the Volt. It's been awfully quiet for the past year.
GJ said 6 days later
The problem, which of course I've been yapping about since the Volt was announced, was that battery power is hinky at low temps. Any "energy economy" rating you slap on a battery-powered car has to deal with the fact that chemical batteries perform quite differently at different temperatures. Gas engines do too--but they warm up. I half wonder if Chevy and Nissan (and Toyota, for that matter) heat their batteries artificially once the car is running to up the battery efficiency when it's cold--which of course, may or may not make sense, depending on the battery power drop and cost to provide the heating in the first place.
GJ said 6 days later
And yes, the Volt is here and will be released shortly. Jury's out on real-world usage, but I'm curious to see how it pans out. The price tag alone is probably enough to doom it.
Steve said 7 days later
Price tag isn't too bad. $41,000. A lot for a midsize sedan though. Lease rate is reasonable though - $350 a month. Don't forget you get a $7500 tax rebate from the federal gov't if you buy one.
compared to, oh, say, an un-named toyota, yea, it's still pricey. :) not that gm's in position to run it as a loss-leader to build market share, as was done with that fairly well selling hybrid.
Steve said 7 days later
I just wish there were some way to determine actual real world fuel economy of normal drivers. I'm not a fan of the black boxes that the government wants to install in cars, but if they did, they could use those to determine actual real world fuel economy for cars. Oh, and don't believe the fuel economy that your car calculates for you (on many new cars they do that for you) - I've seen cars give readings 2-3 mpg higher than if you actually calculate the fuel economy yourself.
GJ said 8 days later
Mine is just like that--right now it's saying 22 mpg, the reality is at best 20. The van is about 1.5mpg above what we really get. I strongly suggest you keep a record of your gas mileage anyhow--it's a good tool for detecting a problem, as it shouldn't drop out of the blue unless of course the season has changed and you're now driving in the winter. :)
They have such unique and fun videos, but I feel like their music is solely created to be the "background noise" to their videos. I would never listen to their stuff outside of these videos. You a big fan of their music GJ? (BTW: You make a remark about Rush, I'll be tempted to post their latest single onto the blog :) ).
GJ said about 9 hours later
I tend to like their stuff. Earlier albums were mostly harmless pop, the latest album is a bit deeper and more complex. I wouldn't begin to claim they are the World's Best Band, or that their drummer is the second coming of Neal Peart (thanks the heavens).
What OKgo have done is revitalize the video music business. Videos used to be pretty cool when I was a kid. Most of them suck eggs now. What OKgo does with them is very entertaining, and I give them props for that.
Geoff said 3 days later
I agree, I wouldn't listen to this particular song outside of the video either. It does complement the video very well, and a great video it is. I can't say I've ever demoed one of their albums. Maybe I should at least try it out.
They do make good videos though; very fitting for today's marketplace too.
GJ said 4 days later
Nothing too surprising from you two, after all, you've been ruined by Rush for so many years I don't think there's any hope to expand your musical tastes.
In all seriousness, though, this song is pretty good. It's just not top-40 material, nor it is traditional rock. I would invite you to listen to all three of their albums. The first two are just plain fun--lots of pop, very listenable, not very deep. This newest album is heading off into more complex tonal structures, but they haven't advanced tremendously in the lyrical department. Still, it's another solid effort and they're gotten decent reviews by the music press as well.
Still, OK go is just one of about a zillion bands / acts that I listen to regularly. I wouldn't put them anywhere near the top--but they're higher than Rush in my list. LOL.
Marc said 4 days later
I take offense to the expanding my musical tastes comment! While Rush is clearly the best band, I do listen to a wide array of music. I've given OK Go a couple shots, and I just can't get into them. For a band that is OK Go-ish and I enjoy much more, I recommend Franz Ferdinand.
I will listen to pretty much any band and likely enjoy them to some extent short of honkey-tonk country, rap, emo, screamo, and some of the thrash/death metal. I also don't give pop too much time, but I do enjoy some of the music, I just find it very "designed" and don't get much feeling out of the music. For example, Lady Gaga has found the "design" to make a popular song, some are even catchy, but every song sounds the same and it's nothing new and exciting from a musical standpoint.
Clearly I'm not a top-40 material kind of guy anyway, being a Rush fan, I think there's only been 3 or so songs that made it there and they certainly aren't my favorites. I feel the same way about OK Go that I do about The White Stripes (and everything Jack White does). The music is so simple that it's boring 10 seconds into it. I'm always waiting for a "spine-chilling" moment, but they never deliver.
I recommend watching this clip from "It Might Get Loud." It's a movie featuring Jimmy Page, Jack White, and The Edge (U2) talking about their various styles. The movie kinda sucks, but there's a moment in the movie where they're all showing off their various riffs and styles and they each don't understand each others' music very well. Then Jimmy Page plays part of "Whole Lotta Love." You could see in Jack White and The Edge's face that they are just clearly overwhelmed and you see the emotion come over them. THAT'S the kind of music I look for.
And because you ripped on Rush, here's the new single :)
GJ said 4 days later
LOL, I know how to press your buttons! Yup, I would agree with your Franz Ferdinand comment--I've been listening to FF for a few years now.
Also saw It Might Get Loud, that wasn't a horrible movie, but you certainly had to like music for music's sake to sit through it. I didn't read White and the Edge as being overwhelmed. I think, rather, that's it's a powerful experience getting to hear Page fire up Whole Lotta Love right in front of you--especially for White, who probably grew up with that music as a kid.
In the mean time, I'm going back to my Black Keys. I'm in a blues groove of late.
GJ said 4 days later
OK, I listened to the Rush single.
Interesting guitar lick at first, and decent groove. Then it kinda got prog-rock fugly...and that was before the singing started. All went downhill once Geddy opened up. Then I looked at the video timer---holy crap, six minutes of this?? You gotta be brain damaged to enjoy this.
Geoff said 4 days later
Just use Pandora. You'll find all kinds of stuff you've never heard of. Lately, I've jumped from Hendrix, to BB King, to Paramore, a stint of some Van Halen, Steve Miller Band, Everclear, Floyd and back to Rush. If this isn't a jump in music, I'm not sure what is. There was even a hint of Coldplay in there...which is actually good music to lay in some gut busting drum beats. Much easier to throw down in songs with little to no drum tracks so I can make up what I want (and in most cases, make the song more enjoyable to me).
Evanescence has a few good tracks (especially the unreleased stuff) that are good to play too as well. My Immortal is one of my favorites. Changes the experience of the song entirely.
Now, you want to get cooking, go pop in "Thrill Of It" by Robert Randolph & The Family Band. If you've got other recommendations by people who actually play their own instruments, please share.
Geoff said 4 days later
Oh and GJ, if you've got a blues groove going, check out Foghat's latest album, Last Train Home. Good stuff.
Marc said 4 days later
If I was Pandora, I think I would mark any song with guitar arpeggios as prog-rock fugly for GJ :P. Rush also wrote another new single BU2B (it's on YouTube too), that might hit your agnostic/atheist bone.
And Geoff, I don't know how you listen to Coldplay. That stuff puts me to sleep every time. I actually think they should have a label similar to the Parental Advisory so that people don't play it in their cars late at night, I've accidentally changed lanes due to Coldplay many times. :)
I'm going to probably lose all credibility, but I've been on a Huey Lewis and the News kick, which was only amplified (pun intended) by the TBS marathon of Back to the Future last weekend. I think there's enough guitar/sax solos in there to be considered rock/blues even though iTunes swears it's pop. :)
Marc said 4 days later
Oh and If you want to hear prog rock, fire up some Porcupine Tree. Those guys have some really awesome songs (Wedding Nails, Blackest Eyes, The Sound of Muzak) and then some super prog rock epics, which I can't sit through. I do recommend seeing them live though, they put on quite the show.
My other favorites for now are John Mayer (his bluesier albums Continuum and Battle Studies...not some of his older albums as much), Matt Nathanson, Switchfoot, and the occasional Pearl Jam tune (basically everything off the Ten album is a masterpiece).
I'll have to check out the Foghat album, haven't given them a listen in quite some time.
GJ said 4 days later
Geoff, I'll check out Foghat. You check out Muddy Waters and Robert Johnson if you want some real blues action. Oh, *that* Foghat. Yeah, I listened to them back when I was a kid. Did they release something recently that doesn't sound like rock in the disco era? :)
Marc, I'm not gonna pick on you for HL&TN. I have most of their albums, and while it's not my scene anymore, I do spin them up now and again. Few albums touch Sports in terms of power pop, and some of their later non-pop stuff is pretty decent too.
Some albums I can recommend without hesitation:
Fastball--All The Pain Money Can Buy
Sugarbomb--Bully
Black Keys--Rubber Factory
Death Cab For Cutie--Narrow Stairs
Fountains of Wayne--Welcome Interstate Managers
Raconteurs--Consolers of the Lonely
Carbon Leaf--Indian Summer
That's what's been making my playlist of late, but gosh, there's lots more where that came from.
GJ said 4 days later
oh, a key--fastball is alt pop, sugarbomb is kinda like queen, black keys are modern blues, death cab is just plain alternative, FoW is alt pop, Raconteurs is Jack White and Brendan Benson (so you should know what you're getting there), and Carbon Leaf does Celtic stuff mostly but this album is closer to alt-folk with a definite Celtic influence.
Geoff said 4 days later
Hey Marc, I don't listen to Coldplay by itself. But it does work well to mix in some drums because it is, well, um, snoozy. But, I bet with my drumming on crack it would wake it up for you a bit!
Foghat is a new album, just released last week I believe. Give it a listen and see what you think.
Steve said 4 days later
Geoff, that was supposed to be a jump in music? P-P-P-P-P-Please.... Come talk to me when your ipod has Metallica (the greatest rock band of all time, bar none - BAR NONE), Niel Diamond, Gwen Stefani, Sarah McLahlan, John Denver, George Straight, a few musicals, jan and dean, Motley Crue, RBD, Ashlee Simpson, Miranda Lambert, a version of the Halleluah chorus, Eminem, Cypress Hill, and Shakira.
Geoff said 4 days later
well that's not just what my iPhone contains...I do have some east coast hip hop, a little country, and a german prog rock opera album about Don Quixote (by Vandas Plas) and of course many others, including some on your list there (sorry, Ashlee Simpson won't ever find her way on to my deck, that is just plain wrong).
Now, here is another funky song for you all. Get yourself The Shotgun Wedding Quintet's "We Take It Back" song. It's a hip hop symphony featuring all white guys. Damn good tune.
We all obviously have a wide taste in music.
Marc said 4 days later
I'll have you know, Kirk Hammett (Metallica's guitarist) says Alex Lifeson (Rush) was one of, if not the, biggest influences on him in the Rush documentary (Beyond the Lighted Stage, due out next week on DVD :)). Oh, and a Death Cab for Cutie band member made an appearance too, which I was surprised by. I think it was the drummer.
I'm actually more likely to say AC/DC or Aerosmith is the greatest rock band from a music + live show combination. Kiss is up there too, but their music is pretty sub-par. Rush puts on a good show, but they just don't have the rock band lifestyle. Their music is obviously better though. :P Metallica has some really fantastic stuff (read: Black Album, Master of Puppets), but boy they have some really horrible stuff (read: The entire St. Anger album). From what I've seen of their live performance, they're an energetic band, but they don't have much of a show going on. This is more Rush's style too, but they're about 20 years older, so they're not quite as energetic anymore. :)
As a relatively big sidenote, if you're a Queen fan, do NOT get the Queen + Paul Rogers album. It absolutely blows. It sounds more like a bad version of Bad Company. I heard it come on my iPod this morning going in to work, and I can't believe I still have it on my iPod.
GJ said 5 days later
Yeah, the feedback from the Queen / Paul Rogers album was really nasty. I haven't even bothered to give it a listen.
Steve--Metallica is the greatest rock band? Queen, Pink Floyd, Led Zeppelin, The Who and the Rolling Stones would like a word with you. :)
GJ said 5 days later
Geoff said 5 days later
Yeah I'd think the Beatles might have issue with Metallica as the best band ever as well. While I'm not a huge Beatles fan, they clearly had more influence on the world than any other rock band. Runners up would be Rolling Stones and Led Zeppelin. The Who, The Doors, Queen, Pink Floyd, Kiss, Metallica, etc, all great influential groups, but I don't imagine they had nearly the influence that The Beatles had in the rock genre, or in music in general. They are one of the few musical icons that almost everyone recognizes. The only other comparable would be Elvis & Michael Jackson as a musical icon, despite what you think of their music, they were all "great" musicians.
Rush, while having some of the best musical talent on earth, simply didn't care for the limelight. They defined their music, not the record label or the media. I look forward to the new movie about them, and I would encourage any music lover to consider it as well. It should be a fantastic story. It is not often to see such incredible talent stick together in the rock world (whether they break up, overdose, or go to jail as some of the greats have).
Despite what you think of their music, Rush opted for the road most never travel in the rock world, and have been successful doing so. Considering they rank 3rd for the most consecutive gold or platinum studio albums by a rock band, only bested by The Beatles and The Rolling Stones, says something.
With that said, Rush is still the best band ever in my book. I know of no 3 man band that can make this much noise...let alone a 4 or 5 piece group...and do it so well. Most musicians would agree. And if you ask me, greatness should be judged by the greats. (myself included of course :)
Marc said 5 days later
I'm surprised you like Death Cab for Cutie. They're pretty good, but their singer sounds a lot like Geddy, although slightly lower register, in many of their songs.
Raconteurs is Jack White's best stuff. He's still a bit of a silly singer, but in this group they've got a decent overall sound.
I've heard of Carbon Leaf, but never given them a chance. Just heard "Life Less Ordinary." That's a pretty awesome tune.
Marc said 5 days later
Geoff - I traveled [a pathetic?] 2 hours to Greensboro, NC to go see the Rush documentary on the big screen. You're gonna love it. It's not Rush fanboyism either, it's very interesting insight into the record industry, musical changes through the late 60s to present day, and the interesting stories of touring with KISS, Ted Nugent, and finally moving on to being the headliner. I learned a lot of things I had never heard about the band too, which was pretty surprising.
Geoff said 5 days later
awesome, I can't wait!
GJ said 5 days later
Oh, yeah, how could I forget the Beatles? Probably because they're not high on my list of favorites, either. ;)
Marc--Ben Gibbard and Geddy Lee both share geeky voices, but Geddy's is shrill. I don't find Ben's shrill. That, and I like Ben's lyrics.
Life Less Ordinary *is* an awesome song. Give the rest of the album a listen, you won't be disappointed. Of course, once you start down that road, check out Great Big Sea. We caught Carbon Leaf (again) here in Albany back in April, and Great Big Sea is coming here for the Irish Fest we're attending along with Enter The Haggis and Gaelic Storm in September. Good times, good times.
Geoff said 6 days later
Listening to Carbon Leaf now. Got their entire Discography, but trying out the Indian Summer album first. So far so good!
Abby said 6 days later
May I start in on how addicted I am to listening to Carbon Leaf? ;]
GJ said 6 days later
Do pay for their stuff, if you haven't. They aren't exactly rich, and they're now on their own label.
As you may have heard, the Texas Board of Education is busy rewriting history to better reflect the illusion that the Religious Right (TM) try to maintain. Did you also realize they've taken to rewriting math standards? Check out this example below!
I was watching this on TV, really hoping that it was a mix of snowboarder cross, ice hockey, and roller derby. Unfortunately it's missing the roller derby aspect. Although people wiping out tended to cause enough injuries on their own.
To be fair, it did stop. But I think my car has this same feature.
GJ said about 10 hours later
You have to wonder about this kind of feature. Not so much that it can work or even that it can work reliably, but how it might change us as drivers. Am I going to take more chances in my car if I know that I have stability control, avoidance control, etc., to the point that I can do things like text my friends while driving and generally get away with it?
Wonder how such a system tries to deal with far faster closing speeds, like those you'd see in a head-on collision. I'm guessing this one is primarily for highway driving. That's kind of silly--there are almost no fatalities on highways, compared to local roads with intersections and two-way traffic.
Marc said about 13 hours later
I was thinking of this today again and wondered how well it would handle differing weather conditions as well. Combined with many other features of luxury cars, it's probably fine, but if the auto-brake determined it needed to break hard, but it's icy, you may end up flipping your car versus just rear ending the guy in front of you.
I give it a couple years before we see a lawsuit because features like this have made a bad decision and made an accident worse than it could have been if the human was in control.
GJ said about 14 hours later
While I think they'll take into account the status of the stability control system, I do think you're right about the lawsuit angle. It's not a question of if a problem like this will occur, but when. As an automaker, you have to assume that risk and be willing to eat the costs. It may not be a bad thing for them so long as the costs don't outstrip sales gains.
Steve said 1 day later
Hey, don't blame us. At first, customer's wanted stability control, now the government is mandating it (all 2012 cars will have it standard).
Adaptive cruise control, accident avoidance, stuff like that - I hate it all. In production it is all very overprotective, and does not work well in moderate to heavy traffic.
Stability control, when well executed, is helpful to 99.99999% of the drivers. Even yours truly has been saved from two spins in the Crossfire due to stability control.
You'll never win a lawsuit by saying that someone "could" have out performed the stability control. It would have to be the system causing an accident, not a system that did not prevent an accident.
GJ said 2 days later
I'm not blaming the automakers by any stretch. I'm blaming this culture that believes we need to protect ourselves from everything.
I don't have a probably with stability control. But this autopilot crap is downright scary.
Marc said 2 days later
I'm definitely not blaming the engineers. I know how it works; this comes down from the higher ups who think this will be cool! But I imagine many of these features are very hard to engineer and implement and probably don't function very well unless conditions are perfect, which makes them pretty useless in the end other than another sales point for people who would fall for it. So I guess those higher ups are getting what they want. They always do, don't they?
And I agree, nobody will win that lawsuit, but I'm sure we'll SEE one. :)
GJ said 2 days later
Actually, I think you definitely will see those kind of lawsuits, and it's even possible that a suit like that could succeed. Court laws vary wildly from state to state. Some are pretty open this kind of crappy lawsuit.
Steve said 2 days later
Stability control is not THAT difficult to implement. "Autopilot" is. What the industry is working on now is avoidance systems, not so much "drive it for you" systems. I mean, I'm sure there are a few guys working on a car that you can hop into and it will drive for you, but much more of our resources is going into developing nearer terms stuff - things that will interact if it sees you making a mistake - like hitting the brakes if a collision is imminent, or helping you maintain control of the car in an emergency maneuver.
A perfect stability control system is capable of doing things that humans just cannot. Stability control controls the brakes on each wheel individually, and applies the brakes on certain wheels to help turn the car one way or another. We cannot accomplish that - we have but one brake pedal. Not that any car has a perfect stability control system, but they are getting better and better.
Steve said 2 days later
oh, and some of the new controls systems are kinda cool - like controlling torque to each wheel when accellerating - it can put more torque to the outside tire to help turn the car better. Honda's SHAWD cars have that (super handling all wheel drive....).
Don't hit that play button if you know what is good for you. Don't say I didn't warn you.
Marc said about 2 hours later
While the song is unbelievably annoying, I think it contains one of the hardest set of letters for a ventriloquist to pronounce. Interesting find Abby. :)
