Baumblog EST 1968 - A blog for the Baumbachs who originated in Syracuse, NY

You remember Pat Tillman, right? He's the former Arizona Cardinal football player (that's the NFL, for those of you not in the know) who decided to join up with the Army Rangers after 9/11 and was deployed to Afghanistan. He never made it home--shot dead by the enemy, or so the govermnent first said.

Then, the story changed. It became a friendly-fire incident, because he was killed by a NATO bullet. Big controversy--see, the government stuck to its original story until this little bit of evidence came to light. Jerks.

But oh no, it gets much better. See, Pat was an atheist. In a foxhole, so to speak. So much for that old saying. But that's not the real scoop.

Anyhow, it turns out Pat Tillman was shot at a range of 10 meters, with three closely spaced shots to the forehead with an automatic weapon. TEN METERS is THIRTY FREAKING FEET. Three bullets from an automatic weapon is pretty tough to put all in close proximity to one another....unless, of course, it's an ambush and you're set to aborb the rifle recoil. That's intentional murder, folks...a far cry from the war hero image the government first tried to play up.

Can we impeach Bush now? And Cheney, too? And please get rid of Gonzales--it's embarrassing to even have that guy testify in public. I really, honestly, truly believe Bush will eclispse Hoover, Harding, and Grant as the worst presidents in our history. And, oh, have I got a cartoon for you:

Steve said about 9 hours later

So what does a murder of a soldier in Iraq have to do with the war in Iraq, other than the fact that the murder happened in Iraq? How do we know that the enemy didn't get ahold of one of our weapons and used it to shoot Tillman.

And 30 feet - that's probably fairly typical range. Remember, this is fighting in cities and whatnot. And these aren't necessarily cities with roads that are as wide as ours. Was the bullet from a rifle or a hand gun?

I'm not saying I agree with the war, or I'm that big of a fan of Bush anymore, but I think your logic is a bit flawed here. You've had much more convincing arguments against the war in the past, this is more like typical media sensationalism.
Kristen said about 16 hours later

Are you saying that Tillman was shot because he was an atheist? I wouldn't be shocked to hear that he was intentionally murdered, but he must have known something...or been involved in something he shouldn't have.

I just finished reading Tim O'Brien's The Things They Carried (thanks Marc). It's a collection of stories from his experiences in Vietnam. It's scary how much what he has to say still rings true today...

"In June of 1968, I was drafted to fight a war I hated...the American war in Vietnam seemed to me wrong. Certain blood was being shed for uncertain reasons. I saw no unity of purpose, no consensus on matters of philosophy or history or law. The very facts were shrouded in uncertainty: Was it a civil war? A war of national liberation or simple aggression? Who started it, and when, and why? America was divided on these and a thousand other issues, and the debate had spilled out across the floor of the United States Senate and into the streets, and smart men in pinstripes could not agree on even the most fundamental matters of public policy. The only certainty that summer was moral confusion. It was my view then, and still is, that you don't make war without knowing why. Knowledge, of course, is always imperfect, but it seemed to me that when a nation goes to war it must have reasonable confidence in the justice and imperative of its cause. You can't fix your mistakes. Once people are dead, you can't make them undead." (p.40-1)

Amen brother.
GJ said 1 day later

First, this happened in Afghanistan, not Iraq. I just liked the Toles too. 30 feet in Afghanistan is not 30 feet in Iraq...there is next to no city fighting going on in Afghanistan, and they were not in a city at the time this occurred.

There is no logic here, actually...if anything, I need to call for the heads of not only the administration, but the military commanders who also helped perpetrate this. No doubt, however, that the need to keep the war in a positive light, be it in Afghanistan or Iraq, is the reason this kind of crap is going on.

Now, for Kristen's point asking "was he shot because he was an atheist?" Sorry, I totally muddled up that point--there is no way to know if that was the case, at least not without a detailed murder investigation. Note that this has yet to occur, and probably will never occur. Tillman wasn't the first soldier murdered by his team. Word is, actually, that not only was he an atheist, but not very tolerant of those soldiers who were not handling the pressure of combat too well. It's entirely possible he just pissed someone off on his team to the point of murder.

Some pundits are claiming that perhaps Tillman knew something that would put the war in a bad light. Ummm...probably not. That smacks of paranoia. But...again, a real investigation might put that to rest.
GJ said 1 day later

Back to the 30 feet thing. Steve, you've fired a gun, so you know what recoil is. I don't have the specs on just how close the bullet entry points were, but they were close enough the cause the autopsy examiner to raise alarms about how the body didn't match the story that came with it. 30 feet is very close--an accidental shooting isn't going to put 3 slugs in someone's forehead all right next to each other. You'd expect that, aimed at the head, they'd be all over the place.

Something still smells.
Geoff said 1 day later

Well I did forget to take a shower this morning...
Steve said 1 day later

Have they confirmed all 3 shots came from the same gun?

I have fired guns before, and recoil can vary greatly based on the gun design. Sharpshooter's guns have very little recoil. My shotgun uses the gases from the shell being fired to load the next shell into the chamber. Using the some of the energy in this manner reduces the recoil in my shotgun to less than half what you would get in a pump or double barrel shotgun.

Ammuntion also makes a huge difference in recoil. The loads we shoot for sporting clays are fairly light, as they like to limit the travel of the shot. Loads used in hunting geese are quite heavy, and have a LOT of kick. I can fire 100 rounds of sporting clays loads no problem, but I'd have a very sore shoulder if I fired 10 goose loads in a day.

Also, who says the shots were fired in quick succession? The first shot could have killed him, then the killer could have walked up and fired the next two shots while standing over him.

Sounds like there is just not enough known about exactly what happened, and that's likely the reason there will not be a closed murder investigation.

BTW, what does the gov't get out of publicizing his death, hero or not? I'd think they'd want to keep it quiet. Right now, most of the public doesn't have a personal connection with people that have been killed in Iraq/Afg. Start killing off celebrities that people connect with, and then you'll see some serious negative feelings.
GJ said 1 day later

And now, doesn't one of his squadmates come out of the woodwork to claim it was friendly fire...but cannot confirm any hostiles present. If his testimony is to be believed, he claims the shots came from more like 50 meters away. Another source puts a sniper team onsite during this hoedown.

Also turns out the "Tillman was ridiculing his religious squadmates" story came from the chaplain who wrote up the incident...but this squadmate in the interview says that Tillman was nothing like that at all.

OK, what does the government have to gain regarding publicizing his death? They weren't so much publicizing as spinning the story. Tillman was already famous for giving up an NFL career to join the Rangers. Him dying in combat was a big story all on its own. Adminitration starved for good war news plays the war hero angle, perhaps before they got the whole story, or maybe they spun it maliciously from the get-go. Regardless, the real cause of death (by US weapon fire) was not disclosed to his family for quite a long time--they were fed a false story, apparently fueled by the administration not wanting to look like they jumped the gun on this case.
Steve said 2 days later

See, now, your last paragraph in your last response says it all. "Perhaps before they got the whole story, or MAYBE they spun it maliciously from the get-go." "Regardless, the real cause of death (by US weapon fire) was not disclosed to his family for quite a long time--they were fed a false story, APPARENTLY fueled by the administration not wanting to look like they jumped the gun on this case."

Ok, so put yourself in the place of the government. This guy gets killed. What would you do? Now, all you know personally is that the guy was killed in Afghanistan. Well, you assume that he was killed by Taliban or Al-Quada fighers, right? And if you make that assumption, then you would spin this is a hero story, right? Keep in mind, George Bush and his PR people doesn't personally conduct an investigation into each person that is injured or killed in Iraq or Afghanistan.

The fact is, WE don't know the hard facts of this case, so we cannot make any accurate conclusions based on speculation by us or the media.
GJ said 3 days later

I can't put myself in the shoes of the executive branch. I have a conscience, after all. :)
Steve said 3 days later

What's a conscience? Isn't that something God gave you to help determine right from wrong?

Yea, I'm in the mood to harass you, if you haven't already been able to tell....
GJ said 4 days later

No, I'm pretty sure the soul is the thing God have you, especially since I can't seem to find mine. Your conscience, which is what pretty much dictates right and wrong for you, is formed by your parents and peers early on, and continues to evolve over time unless you're a republican. It's definitely not supplied by God, because different folks around the globe have *very* different ideas of right and wrong. Unless, of course, you buy into the theory of a sadistic God.

I like the harassment game! ;)
Geoff said 4 days later

Hey I was watching Dawkins on YouTube yesterday, and beyond all the trash talking of religion, he actually brought up an interesting point about morality and how gorillas exert some moral "conscience" if you will...pretty neat stuff. You'd have to watch it to get a better idea than my few words of wisdumb. Do a search for the "Root of All Evil"....in case didn't know :)
GJ said 4 days later

And I have another interesting read....see the next post.