Baumblog EST 1968 - A blog for the Baumbachs who originated in Syracuse, NY

So, netbooks. What exactly are they? Minature lap-tops? Web surfers? Glorified camera phones?

We're tossing around the idea of getting one for Drew's mom to help keep her busy and less lonely. If there was an easy for for her to access the internet and email with something that didn't take up a lot of space and was easy to learn how to use....

Marc said about 2 hours later

Netbooks are essentially mini-laptops used for simple computer usage. The lack in hardware is merely to aid in making it more portable. There's tons of netbooks out there and all are probably pretty closely matched. One thing to keep in mind is that many have about a 7" screen and for some reason a ridiculous huge resolution (only wide though, they have small vertical screens) for such a small screen. This adds up to you needing some awesome eyes to see things. The keyboards are also usually 70-80% smaller than a regular keyboard. I have tiny fingers and it's still hard for me to type on them.

Personally I would recommend a smaller laptop, but not something that is advertised as a netbook. There's some Thinkpad X60s that are small and the Macbook Air is really thin and pretty small (but full size keyboard and good screen size to resolution ratio), although the Air isn't cheap.

Alternatively, there's a new tablet device coming out likely next Wednesday from Apple. It may or may not be released immediately, but I imagine it will be under $900 and will be easy to use and do basic computing with it. I'll post an update here when I hear more about it.
Steve said about 3 hours later

I would also suggest you go for a laptop instead of a netbook, mainly due to the small keyboard.
GJ said about 12 hours later

I've seen a fair number of my older clients go for netbooks. While the keyboards are smaller, this is more an issue for two handed typists like Marc and I than it is for hunt and peckers. If all you're doing is email and web surfing, buying more than a netbook is a waste of money, imho. As far as the screen resolution, most of them have an easy zoom to make reading easier on the eyes. I'd look for that feature if you go for a netbook for Drew's mom.

Just my $0.02.
Abby said 2 days later

Hmm... I'm a two-handed typist and you said I should get a netbook instead of dragging my desktop to college. Hm. Then again, I got used to typing on my iPod touch, and that's an itty bitty keyboard...

Haven't used a netbook before, though. So don't mind me :]
GJ said 2 days later

If you're going to college to write papers, do homework, and do the email/web thing, get a netbook. If you're going to school for computer science, get a laptop. Same advice if you're going to college to play video games, but Abby won't be doing that. Riiiiight?

A desktop makes absolutely no sense at college, unless you already have one and don't have the money for a laptop or netbook. I had a desktop at college, but I also lived in a converted high school classroom at the time and space wasn't an issue for me. I also drove a full size van, which helped to move the giant metal desk I got with the computer.
Abby said 2 days later

...of courseee nottt. :D that's what I have an iPod touch for!
Geoff said 3 days later

and if you plan on doing cool stuff like me, get a laptop :)

Microsoft Paint is really computer intensive.
GJ said 4 days later

Yeah, I hear MS Paint in Win 7 requires dual-core processors, minimum.
Kristen said 4 days later

Hum, not sure. Definitely not interested in spending over $500. She does have horrible eyes though--she can barely use her cell phone (probably overdue for an eye exam by like, 10 years.). You know what they need to invent? You know how they have that jitterbug cell phone? We need a jitterbug laptop/computer for older folks. Email, internet, word processing, pictures. Bingo! Pardon the pun.

Let me know when you guys hear of something like this. If it's not invented yet, tell Steve Jobs Marc.
Kristen said 4 days later

Drew says, don't tell Steve Jobs. You invent a prototype, and then Drew is (ever so graciously) offering to help get a patent and pitch it.
Marc said 5 days later

Like I said, there's an Apple Tablet coming out Wednesday, for all we know it'll solve that problem too. :) You'll know if it's worth it if I end up creating a post about how ridiculously cool it is and how it's going to change things. But, more than likely, I won't be impressed. I hate tablets.
Geoff said 5 days later

Of course you can probably tack on another 0 to that $500 for the Apple Tablet. The Apple logo itself generally costs $500 to begin with. Everything else is extra.
Marc said 5 days later

Yea, I'll guarantee it'll be out of the $500 price range. The iPhone was that price when it came out.
Marc said 7 days later

Wow, I was wronged! You can get an Apple iPad, 16GB for $499 (in 2 months). Check out the info:

http://i.engadget.com/2010/01/27/live-from-the-apple-tablet-latest-creation-event/?sort=newest&refresh=30

This will likely blow the doors off any netbook in the area of web browsing, email, media, games, eBook reading, etc. The only better eBook reader is likely the Kindle, only because of its screen. But if you don't have a beef with reading off the glossy screen, this thing does it all. If you want Wifi access wherever you go, you'll have to up the price a bit, but if you just want Wifi, there's no competition IMO.

It also has a FULL SIZE keyboard, on screen of course, and can be docked to a real keyboard if desired.
Geoff said 7 days later

http://www.apple.com/ipad/#video

there you go baby, your answer.
GJ said 8 days later

uh, Marc, I don't think it touches the notebook you and I were discussing. :) Even though that one is twice the cost.
Marc said 8 days later

I said netbook, not notebook, two totally different uses. If you're willing to pay a little more for the iPad, no netbook is in the same ballpark, unless you're one of those silly people trying to accomplish a lot on a netbook to begin with, in which case: You're doing it wrong. :) I think Apple put it pretty well: There's a mobile need, and a laptop need. iPad is the in between, when you want to just quickly browse the web, quickly look at photos, quickly check e-mail, read a book, quickly play a little game, etc. This is the market netbooks are trying to hit, but do you really need a full operating system getting in the way of accomplishing that, not to mention all the software you need to add on top to, keep updated, etc. If you're looking for something that just works and gets the job done, this kills any netbook.

If, however, you do need more than that, a netbook or a laptop is a better option. For instance Abby is not suited for an iPad when going to college; a netbook would probably be better suited. But if the price looks right, Drew's Mom is looking for an iPad. If the price was lower than $500, it would be a no brainer, but $500 is a bit high, although reasonable IMO.
Geoff said 8 days later

For an Apple product, $500 is very reasonable for something this new and cutting-edge.
Kristen said 8 days later

Drew seems to think his mom may not be able to figure out how to turn the iPad on.

That might make for a slow start...
Geoff said 8 days later

it does require some hand-eye coordination. GJ may have problems as well.
GJ said 8 days later

marc--gotcha
geoff--only in your world would $500 sound reasonable. :) Never mind I'm going to pay $1k for a notebook shortly.
Geoff said 9 days later

:) dude the cool factor. Gotta calculate that into the equation.
GJ said 9 days later

OK, I've looked at the iPad. Have no idea why this is better than a netbook. With a netbook, I can configure it how I want--I can run whatever I want on it out of the box, limited only by the hardware present on the machine. That's why a netbook is still a computer. The iPad is just a big-screen iPod touch.

Now, I'm not saying that it's worse for email, or web surfing. I'm just saying that this is nothing special. It may wipe out the netbook market, but it's not going to be the end-all, be-all device tech consumers have been dreaming of.
Marc said 9 days later

I think that's precisely why it's perfect for its target. The netbook's main argument now is only price, from a size and use perspective if you want more of a "computer" a netbook is still better than the iPad, but if you really just looking for a coffee table/kitchen device that you can use to check e-mail, browse web, etc. the iPad is just way more fun, useful, and to the point. I do agree though, $500 isn't cheap. For Apple it is, but people are going to be less likely to just pick it up at this price. Give it time though, it will drop in price after their sales aren't quite as high as they were hoping. I give it 6 months (8 from now, since it won't be out for another 2) before that happens.
Geoff said 9 days later

$500 for a tablet device, common guys. That isn't a bad price. The iPod touch sells for $200 and those things are hot cakes. For $500, I bet this iPad is going to blow the competition out of the market. Just you wait.

What do people besides us geeks actually use their computers for: Email, surfing the web, writing documents, and playing games. This does all that. What more could you really ask for? Not to mention you don't have to pay for or worry about viruses. I'd love to hear an argument for what this can't do, that the general public would want it do to.

I'm not quite convinced this can't be used for college students. I mean, it wouldn't work for a designer or software engineer, but for the other 75% of newbie college students who don't have a clue what they want to do, would allow them to research, write papers, and chug beer (in fact, now a keg of beer instead of the tiny glass you get on the iPhone/touch).

Not to mention, I bet it is a whole lot easier to connect to a wireless signal than it is in Windows. I still can't get that Lenova laptop to connect consistently.
GJ said 9 days later

When you say "play games" keep in mind you mean "play little crappy games." No Supreme Commander 2 for you, my friend.

Would it work for college students? Depends entirely on what they need. Again, it's not a computer, and that's my point. Well, that, and you won't find me getting one as a result. :)

Ease of wireless connections is all about the driver program. Has nothing to do with Windows if you don't use the windows connection manager, silly. And Windows isn't the only game in town, either.
Geoff said 9 days later

Windows and Mac...and mac lovers will probably want the iPad, and that is the only "netbook" offered by apple. I don't know too many average users who run Linux, or even know what Linux is.

speaking of which, have you played any of these "little crappy games?" Some of them are quite good, and cost little to nothing. Sure beats paying $50 for a "big crappy game."

Regardless, I doubt too many netbooks or even notebooks for that matter will play (insert your top notch game title here) very well.

The fact remains, this TABLET pc can do more than look pretty. I keep saying the iPhone is an incredible device and a terrible phone (AT&T is mostly to blame at this point). Since the iPad isn't being sold as a phone, I'm fairly confident it will gobble up the competition and be a hit for students and business professionals. It's light, thin, and can do just about anything I need it to do for business travel (even connect to a projector). I'm sure I'll have one sooner than later.

Marc said 9 days later

You may be right Geoff, it could be good enough for most people in college, especially if you get the dock integrated with the keyboard. It certainly will rock that you can download all of your college books and keep them in the iPad and not have to carry around a huge book bag (Calculus books are heavy!)

I wouldn't call them little crappy games either, this thing has full OpenGL support, and I've seen some pretty awesome games on the iPhone. Granted, it's not the best interface for many popular types of games (FPS, anything that really should be played with a controller). Basically, Real Time Strategy, driving, and any other kind of motion sensing/touch game. "Flight Control" is one of the most addicting games I've played in a while and it's such a simple, nice looking app that utilize touch...things like that people would love to play. I can see RTS being pretty popular on the iPad too, screen real estate was a big problem on the Touch and iPhone.

This will cause a lot of vendors to change their idea of what a netbook should be. One big problem for Apple is Windows 7 is very touch friendly supposedly, and the first person to make a device similar to the iPad running Windows 7 could gobble up some of the market. Not too surprisingly though, I think it's a slim chance since everybody else seems to follow Apple's lead WAY too slowly. Not to mention Windows 7 is still a pretty hefty operating system, might be hard to run it on such terrible hardware.

We'll see what Google's Chrome OS has to offer for netbooks, but if it's anything like Android, it'll just be a laughable attempt at entering the market. Supposedly 'droid is plagued with memory leaks due to multitasking support; Apple got it right after Windows Mobile fell into this same trap, go figure!
Geoff said 9 days later

Yeah I think this iPad has some tremendous potential. I just wished they gave it a different name. Too darn close to iPod lol. I do like Pad better than tablet, but just gets confused with iPod.
GJ said 9 days later

Other companies followed Apple's lead on the iphone pretty freaking quickly in my book. Just look at what's on the market these days. I think you'll see iPad competitors pretty quickly if the iPad sells well beyond the fanboy boost in the first few months.

I would still call them crappy little games. Let me know when you get Civ IV running on it. Or Bioshock 2.

Android laughable? Not by a long shot. I think the mobile phone market is in for another shift in the next six months, and Apple won't be leading that charge. But then again, I don't get paid for my technical predictive prowess. :)

Geoff said 9 days later

I may eat my words a little here...didn't occur to me that the iPad will likely not support Flash. That is a big bummer for web browsing since most sites use it in some way...even if it is advertising :)

http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2010/01/ipad-flash/
GJ said 9 days later

Didn't take very long. http://www.itworld.com/personal-tech/94697/msi-ready-launch-ipad-alternative
Geoff said 9 days later

Yup, saw that too haha
Marc said 9 days later

MSI sucks, everybody knows that. Show me a real competitor. :)

I don't see a real big deal with Flash support, I think it's going to see some big competition from HTML5. Yea, all the Flash based websites won't work, but people complain about Flash because they can't get their video streaming without it (except YouTube, which is probably 60% of the market anyway). HTML5 has built in support for streaming video and has been implemented by all major browsers except, you guessed it, Internet Explorer. YouTube has even jumped on the HTML5 bandwagon and has support for streaming video if you join their beta. I'm happy to be without the Flash ads though (especially lately on Yahoo's homepage, holy crap people), so I consider it free ad blocking. Thanks Apple! ;)
Marc said 9 days later

Although Adobe sympathizes with everybody, they appear pretty pissed at Apple: http://theflashblog.com/?p=1703

This is a rather long discussion that could come from this, but Stevie J. himself gave a very good reason for not supporting Flash (besides it likely being CPU intensive and thus battery draining): How do you bring the Flash experience to a device that doesn't have a mouse. You'd be surprised how many Flash based applications utilize mouse movement as an important user interface interaction. How do you replicate that with a touch device accurately? Apple actually just picked up a patent that uses proximity sensing that would enable that, but that's likely a year out, if not more.

Supposedly Android supports Flash, has anybody seen it in action?

GJ said 10 days later

No, I'm still using the equivalent of a 386 for a phone.
Geoff said 10 days later

HTML5 won't be replacing Flash anytime soon. It may support video, but as far as I know, it can't provide the interactivity and game play that Flash offers. Until another service can do this with the penetration that Flash has, it isn't leaving! Flash is currently the defacto standard for most videos on the web and until HTML5 is fully supported on all major browsers with enough penetration, I doubt providers will jump aboard. I have no doubt in time HTML5 will offer up some competition, but I will say it is about time the Flash player leveraged hardware acceleration. This is a huge leap forward for Flash...finally.
Marc said 10 days later

Oh no, it won't replace Flash as a whole, just maybe the video portion of it. I agree though, hardware acceleration is a must for Flash to take the interactivity to the next level.
Geoff said 11 days later

Yup...same with video as HD surges. It takes a lot of processing power to play HD material and hardware acceleration takes care of the problem.